Thursday, November 04, 2004

NOTES ON THE DIALECTICS OF ISRAELI ANTISEMITISM

Meretz MK Ran Cohen considers them to be "black ants".
Journalist Amnon Dankner thinks of them as dogs, "tied up in the yard and barking Psalms all night long".
Tour guide Sefi Ben-Yosef sees them as "a humming collection of locusts". Poet Moshe Dor pictures them as "the dark forces of our era".
Columnist Amnon Avramovicz maintains that they are "a death-causing plague".
Commentator Natan Donevitz imagines them as "black swarms".
Yoel Marcus, author and newspaperman, knows they are "black forces" and "soul snatchers".

Playwright Yosef Mondey opines that they are "rude baboons".
The now defunct Marxist daily, Al HaMishmar, the mouthpiece of the Mapam party, held them to be "barbarians...the black front...representing the most mystical, magical, primitive urge...their schools are ‘institutes of darkness’".
Gideon Sammet, journalist and former diplomat, knows they are "the most obscurantist and ugly phenomena of our time".

Shulamit Aloni, former Education Minister and progressive politician, is convinced they are "bloodsuckers...snakes...suckling from the most darkest urges that the Nazi horror suckled from. They are greedy, domineering, evil and primitive, immoral, parasitical and power-hungry".
Uri Avnery, media person, sees them as "bloodsuckers".
Meretz MK Professor Naomi Chazan "a terrible evil...a black genie". Acclaimed writer Amos Oz "armed groups of gangsters, criminals against humanity, sadists, pogromists and murderers...".
(All the quotations appeared in newspapers and other periodicals except for the words of Shulamit Aloni which were spoken in the Knesset Chamber).

And so on and so forth. The "they" are, of course, the Charedim. The religious, and more specifically, the more observant Jews, termed ultra-orthodox.

See the article to learn more about Jewish-Self Hate.

102 Comments:

At November 6, 2004 at 3:43 AM, Blogger benjamin said...

I think its a mistake to call the anti-Haredism in Israel "Israeli anti-semitism". Its not based in anti-semitism but in the struggle between religious and secular forms of Zionism. Several strains of secular Zionism, in particular the strongly socialist strains like the Kibbutz movement and the old Mapam movement (which is basically the source of the Meretz and Yahad parties), embraced a Nietzchean conception of the "New Jew" being created by socialist values and working the land; this concept negated the "Galut" or Diaspora Jew who was personified as the weak, physically deficient religious Jew who studied Torah all day and was helpless in the face of anti-semitic violence (a lot of this ideology was formed during the traumatic Russian-Polish pogroms of the late 1800s). In modern Israel, the only thing resembling this "Old Jew" is the Haredim, and thus the hostility which, I agree, often flies off into totally unacceptable rhetoric. Nonetheless, for the most part, we are dealing here with an internal struggle over Jewish self-definition, and not anti-semitism.

 
At November 6, 2004 at 6:34 AM, Blogger LukaB said...

:)

Can't believe I'm agreeing with Ben.

 
At November 8, 2004 at 10:50 AM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

My problem with them is there disgusting language. If they can’t contain themselves to civil discourse and call one another "bloodsuckers...snakes...suckling from the most darkest urges that the Nazi horror suckled from. They are greedy, domineering, evil and primitive, immoral, parasitical and power-hungry", then to me they offer nothing more than anti-Semitic dribble, even if they do have a point.

 
At November 8, 2004 at 1:10 PM, Blogger LukaB said...

"My problem with them is there disgusting language."

That may very well be, but this doesn't make them anti-semites as they are only discriminating against or showing hostility towards part of the Jewish community, not Jews as a whole.

You can't even make the case of a self-hating Jew as they don't hate themselves (unconsciousely or whatever - never really understood how somebody can be self-hating) but just part of their own society.

Or is this just another case of 'I believe I have a fair interpretation of the facts and I'm sticking with what I said'?

Dhimmy, conceeding from time to time is nothing to be ashamed of, it's how you learn.
And this post is such an obvious blunder that even Ben spoke up about it.

 
At November 8, 2004 at 8:01 PM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

Luka,

If you bothered to read the link to the article you would have a clue as to what I was talking about. But since you have proven time and time again that you are not willing to even check out one of the sources that I provide then there is no use expecting better of you.

One of the most damaging of Israeli antisemitic slogans, which recalls Nazi propaganda and actually replicates it, is the comparison of Charedim to parasites, blood-suckers of the secular community. The terms "parasite" and "blood-suckers" have so deeply embedded themselves into the consciousness of sections of the secular community that the metaphor, at a certain point, has merited a ‘scientific’ explanation. It has become real.
When Uri Avnery wrote that "tens of thousands of Yeshiva students are parasites, sucking the blood of the country" (1), one could relate to the phrase, extreme as it is, as allegorically. After all, there were those who termed members of the kibbutz movement "parasites" following their economic disaster and the transfer of huge sums of public funds to cover their losses. In the same fashion, one could explain away Chaim Be’er’s statement that "they [the religious] grew up as a do-nothing parasite"
Lastly I don’t know wither to laugh or cry at your claim that mocking only a certain portion of Jewish faith doesn’t make one anti-Semitic. Perhaps all Jews should become more and more secular so they can be see as good in your eyes.

 
At November 9, 2004 at 12:42 AM, Blogger LukaB said...

"If you bothered to read the link to the article you would have a clue as to what I was talking about. But since you have proven time and time again that you are not willing to even check out one of the sources that I provide then there is no use expecting better of you."

Dhimmy, I did read the article. And I read most of the crap you link to (though not all).

But I stand by what I said above.

For one to be branded an anti-semite or 'self hating Jew', one has to be discriminatory or hostile against Jews as a whole - against every Jew, not just the fanatically religious ones.
[Merriem Webster's definiton of anti-semitism = hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group]

If one is discriminatory or hostile against only the religious ones, one can be branded anti-Haredist or something similar. But not anti-Semitic.
Right?

"One of the most damaging of Israeli antisemitic slogans, which recalls Nazi propaganda and actually replicates it,"

If one uses Nazi propaganda terms to describe only some Jews one is still not anti-Semitic but only anti-'the group he is describing'.

E.g. - I can call you a 'parasite' and this could be based on a Nazi swear word for Jews yet I am not an anti-Semite as I'm doing it just to prove a point.
See what I mean?

If you include too much stuff into the meaning of anti-Semitism (or any other racism, discrimination, ...) it starts to lose its meaning in my opinion and when the true discrimination comes less people pay attention as you have 'cried wolf' so many times already.

'In the same fashion, one could explain away Chaim Be’er’s statement that "they [the religious] grew up as a do-nothing parasite"'

A question to widen my horizons. Are the Jews people above are talking about the really religious ones who are subsidised by the state, don't have to serve in the army, etc.?


"Lastly I don’t know wither to laugh or cry at your claim that mocking only a certain portion of Jewish faith doesn’t make one anti-Semitic. Perhaps all Jews should become more and more secular so they can be see as good in your eyes."

Don't really care whether you laugh or cry but you really should revise your definiton of anti-Semitism. See above.

 
At November 9, 2004 at 8:06 AM, Blogger benjamin said...

Dhimmi,

I agree with you completely that the rhetoric involved here is dispicable and totally unacceptable.

 
At November 9, 2004 at 8:35 AM, Blogger benjamin said...

I should add that, whatever the motivation behind such rhetoric, those who use it should be more mindful of how it plays into the hands of anti-semites outside of Israel.

 
At November 24, 2004 at 5:55 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

One has to understand that the comments being made against the Haredim are indeed anti-semitic. Just because they are also Jews does not change that fact. This is because the way the Haredim live today most closely resembles the way the Jews lived in the middle ages, and since the secular Jews are the ones who "veered off" and essentially changed what it meant to be a Jew, they are esentially no longer Jews at all in the classical religious sense. Furthermore, their rhetoric is rooted in Enlightenment and Socialist thought, which was itself anti-semitic. Consider the remarks of Volatire regarding the Jews, as well as the later Socialists and Nationalists. In other words, the hateful anti-semitism of the 19th century penetrated Zionism, since this ideology has its roots in this time period as well. Thus one can claim that the remarks of these secularists in Israel are anti-semitic, because it directly replicates the thoughts of these earlier thinkers who were directing their screeds to the Jews as a whole, who were at that time all "Haredim". This is indeed the point made by the secular professor Noah Ephron in his book "Secular vs. Ultra-Orthodox". He was once on a plane and some Haredim were praying near the door, and the stewardess asked him "should I push or you?" Contrary to LukaB, one must NOT restrict anti-semitism to the Jews as a whole, because THIS is what limits it...to the Nazi definition. In the middle ages you could convert to Christianity and you wouldn't be killed. So if you later attacked Judaism you're not an anti-semite because you're only attacking the Jews who didn't convert? So I guess the Jewish apostate who ordered the burnings of 24 cartloads of the Talmud outside the Louvre in the 13th century is not anti-semitic, because he is only against the "Haredim" of the time? Or the Macabees in the Hannukah story. They fought against Hellenized Jews as much as they did the Syrian Greeks. Some of these Hellenistic Jews slaughtered hundreds of Rabbis. So I guess according to LukaB they wouldn't be anti-semitic either?
Thus Greco-Roman anti-semites, Medieval Christian anti-semites, later "modern thinkers" and these current Israeli leaders are all attacking the same thing, classical Judaism, but from different angles. And yes, they are all anti-semitic, Jewish or not.

 
At November 25, 2004 at 7:14 AM, Blogger LukaB said...

I'll just pick up where you mention me...

"Contrary to LukaB, one must NOT restrict anti-semitism to the Jews as a whole, because THIS is what limits it...to the Nazi definition."

???

The definition of anti-semitism is to 'restrict' it to Jews as a whole. Either as a religious group (which includes more than just the Haredim) or an ethinic group (which includes more than the religious group).
But hostility or discrimination against just part of the group, while deplorable, is not anti-semitism.

I think this covers all of your hipotethicals.

Let me give you a hypothetical:

If the Haredim started calling secular Jews 'dogs', 'black ants' etc., would you consider them to be anti-Semites?

 
At November 27, 2004 at 10:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I suppose I was unclear in my post. It depends on how you define anti-semitism. If you define it through the prism of opposition to classical Judaism, then all the examples I provided would qualify it as anti-semitism. Since for the majority of Jewish history the Jews have been religious, the definition of opposition to the Jews was defined as opposition to their RELIGION, not their ethnicity or race. It was only in the modern period when the Nazi view could have come to the fore, which attacked the Jews racially, as a whole. Your definition restricts it to Nazism only, which would exclude all these other time periods in Jewish history, when the enemies of the Jews included non-orthodox Jews, who would be defined as anti-semitic. But again it is difficult, because the very term "anti-semitic" derives from the modern period, and I admit that it can be awkward to project it backwards the way I have. The point that I was trying to make is this: if we interpret anti-semitism as meaning the forces opposed to the Jews, and adopt the classical view that it means opposition to the religion of the Jews, then the views and comments of these Israeli leaders perfectly fit the matrix of classical Jew hatred, hence the examples drawn from the Maccabean Revolt and the Middle Ages. In these latter cases Jews were involved in persecuting other Jews faithful to their religion. If we extend this to the modern day, and understand the Orthodox as representing the Jews who are faithful to their religion (in a largely secular western environment, as opposed to Hellenistic or Christian) then the comments of these Israeli leaders do indeed qualify as anti-semitic.
Your comment, on the other hand, makes no sense because it ignores the main point, namely, how to define anti-semitism. I believe it important to include the entirety of Jewish history in the equation. You don't seem to understand that in the past there were no Haredim or secular, no conservative or reform, there was no division within the Jewish people the way there is today. You have to try and place yourself in that time period and see it from the standpoint of a Jew or Christian living then. If somone hated the Jews before the modern period, it was for religious reasons: essentially the same reasons that these Israeli leaders hate the Haredim.

 
At November 27, 2004 at 10:47 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Allow me to clarify the end of my last post. What I meant was that these Israeli leaders, by attacking the Haredim, are attacking classical rabbinic Judaism. This is the same thing that the medieval Christians attacked, and that the Syrian Greeks attempted to destroy. These Israeli leaders are thus attacking the same thing as these medieval Christians and Syrian Greeks. So the logic goes: their comments are anti-semitic, if we adopt the view that opposition to the Jews manifests itself as opposition to their religion, which has in fact been the case for the vast majority of Jewish history.

 
At November 28, 2004 at 11:17 AM, Blogger LukaB said...

"It depends on how you define anti-semitism."

Yes. This is at the heart of the matter.

I usually use the dictionary definition to avoid confusion. From Merriam Webster's Dictionary anti-semitism is: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group.

Anti-Haredism (as I understand it) does not fall under this category. I admit I know little of the internals of Jewish religion but just checking Wikipedia on Haredi Judaism I see that it is 'also called ultra-Orthodox Judaism' and 'the most theologically conservative form of Judaism'.
So it does not include all religious Jews, which is a requirement for anti-semitic remarks under the M-W definition.

I realise discrimination of the Haredim was equal to anti-Semitism when all Jews or at least all religious Jews were Haredim. They are not anymore so the anti-Haredim remarks cannot be considered anti-Semitic as they are too narrow.

"So the logic goes: their comments are anti-semitic, if we adopt the view that opposition to the Jews manifests itself as opposition to their religion, which has in fact been the case for the vast majority of Jewish history."

This would be true if you take the position that the Haredim are the only religious Jews. As I understand it, they are not. The fact that they 'consider non-Orthodox denominations to be unjustifiable deviations from authentic Judaism' (wikipedia) does not change the fact that the body of religious Jews is comprised of more than the Haredim.

 
At November 28, 2004 at 8:55 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You once again completely miss the point in your comments. To reiterate, the fact of the matter is that classical rabbinic Judaism is what is being attacked by these Israeli leaders. Thus, these Israeli leaders are opposed to the existence of the Jewish religion. Being opposed to the existence of Judaism is anti-semitism. If you actually read the article, Arieh Stav quotes a famous Israeli sculptor who said that when he sees Haredim, he understands why the Holocaust happened. Others say they understand why anti-semitism in general exists, when they see an Orthodox Jew walking down the street. So the absurdity here is that you are saying they are not anti-semitic, when they are in fact admitting it. These very Israeli leaders are defending the actions of anti-semites throughout history, because the classical Judaism of the Orthodox world represents all that is wrong and evil, while they are the "enlightened" ones who have been liberated from the sordid Jewish religion by Marx and Nietzche.
I would suggest you read the article in its entirety, LukaB, not just the excerpt provided by dhimmi. Unfortunately there is much more to this issue than what appears in your dictionary.

 
At November 28, 2004 at 11:56 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What does any of this have to do with Chomsky? Dhimmi, you're off topic, unless this is a sort of guilt by association.

And LukaB is right, o nameless one.

-Strelnikov

 
At December 10, 2004 at 1:11 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, what does this have to do with Chomsky?

Also, I'm skeptical about these quotes. The article doesn't seem to reference them. For example, Amos Oz's statement seems taken out of context, what is the source? Did I miss it in the article?

--E.T.

 
At December 16, 2004 at 3:40 AM, Blogger LukaB said...

Strelnikov,E.T.,

Dhimmy's site is dedicated to 'debunking the work of Noam Chomsky and other self-hating Jews too...'

He's doing neither but ...


Anonymous,

will just address your comments briefly as I am repeating myself.

You said:
"To reiterate, the fact of the matter is that classical rabbinic Judaism is what is being attacked by these Israeli leaders. Thus, these Israeli leaders are opposed to the existence of the Jewish religion."

This is the case in a nutshell. You equate 'classical rabbinic Judaism' with 'the Jewish religion'. I do not. There are many other religious Jews, not just the 'classical rabbinic' ones.
And from what I read, the Israeli leadres are referring to just the 'classical rabbinic' ones, not all religious Jews (which is a requirement for calling somebody an anti-semite).

I'll leave it at that.

 
At May 4, 2005 at 3:49 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Having lived in Israel years ago I am quite aware of the old secular Israeli saying, "here you have to forget about being a Jew, and become an Israeli !"

There is indeed a Jewish antisemitic element to this because it is hate aaginst religious Jews. They are seen as separate and primitive.
The Israeli anti-semites, bear similarities to previous streams of Jewish anti-semites, the original Jewish "Reform" movement in Germany was so openly hostile to religious jews, that it sounded exactly the same. These Jewish anti-semites see them selves as different and advanced over religious Jews, they see themselves as a different group...
Just because they are "jews " who are doing the hating, doesn't mean that they aren't anti-semites. These are often Jews who somehow identify more strongly with being some kind of "Aryan", than they do with Judaism. Jews who are ethnic secular only are hardly the reason Judaism survived 3,500 years. They have no appreciation of Judaism per se, and can hardly be said to practice Judaism at all. Jews who are free of Judaism, are not Jews, by any sensible analysis. They are best seen as the "wicked sons" who are spoken of at Passover, as those who have separated themselves from their own people.

These are anti-semites

Ty Enright

 
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