Friday, July 16, 2004

Bobby Fischer ... Yet another Self-Hating Jew

Yet another self hating Jew has surfaced and his name: Bobby Fischer. Bobby was the first American world chess champion, attaining the title in 1972 after defeating Boris Spassky of the USSR. He later forfeited his title in 1975. Recently he was detained by the Japanese authorities on passport violations. However, it has also been rumored that Bobby Fischer isn’t too fond of Jewish people. In one instance he has claimed that Jews are "thieving, lying bastards". With regards to the September 11 attacks Fischer has stated that, "This is all wonderful news ... I applaud the act. The U.S. and Israel have been slaughtering the Palestinians, just slaughtering them for years. Robbing them and slaughtering them. Nobody gave a shit. Now it's coming back to the U.S. Fuck the U.S. I want to see the U.S. wiped out." A little less tactful, but in essence one of Chomsky’s screeds. However, his hatred for America seems to be rooted in his hatred for Jews, for he has also declared who his real enemies are, "Jews, secret Jews, or CIA rats who work for the Jews." And on top of all this his mother was Jewish. I think the phrase self-hating would be too generous for this guy.

57 Comments:

At July 16, 2004 at 11:29 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

But what does that have to do with Chomsky? You know, other right-wing Zionists (a term that would have made no sense before the `80s) already have lists of "self-hating" Jews on the Internet. So what is the point of ChomskyWatch?

-Strelnikov

 
At July 16, 2004 at 11:54 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And as for Bobby Fischer being a loon, this was well known before you "broke" the story. I remember reading a "Esquire" article on a match Fischer had against Karpov (the Soviet champ until Garry Kasparov beat him) in 1995 or 1996 in war-torn Yugoslavia (I think it was Croatia.) Anyway, the story had a detailed bio of Fischer; how his mother was Jewish but his father was an ex-Wehrmacht officer (which he hid from her for years), how they divorced after Daddy dropped this bombshell and Bobby took his mother's maiden name, how he slowly lost interst in school as chess became more and more of an obsession. Before he dropped out of high school he was drawing weird, distorted faces in the notebooks he filled with radio DJ banter. But that didn't matter because he was already moving up the ranks to become a chess grand master. To make a long story short, I think the guy is a paranoid or schizophrenic and that some of this anti-Semitism comes from his Wehrmacht dad, whom he lived with from time to time. He should be pitied and helped, not lumped into a non-category with fellow genius Chomsky.

-Strelnikov

 
At July 17, 2004 at 1:26 AM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

From the top of my website:

"This website is dedicated to debunking the work of Noam Chomsky and other self-hating Jews too..."

Also according to Jewish tradition one is considered to be Jewish only if there mother is ie. it does not really matter what the father is. Also I never said I broke the story, so what you read it some where else, I posted links to other articles that cover the topic as well. Crazy he might be but no one here is claiming anti-Semites are rational thinkers.

 
At July 17, 2004 at 1:35 AM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

"right-wing Zionists (a term that would have made no sense before the `80s)"

Have you ever heard of the Irgun? Jabotinsky? You know the Likud was created in 1973 right? May be you were thinking about neo-cons? Plus who said I am a right winged Zionist anyway? It seems you Chomsky-tes get so offended when people point out Chomsky anti-Semitic remarks, but aren't afraid of throwing bombs yourself without the slightest bit of evidence.

 
At July 17, 2004 at 4:50 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm not going to get into an arguement about Zionist politics and political history, so please name any anti-Semitic statement by Chomsky. Furthermore, I am not a Chomskyite. I don't take anything he says as the gospel truth, which I doubt you do anytime Dore Gold appears on American television.

 
At July 17, 2004 at 4:53 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At July 17, 2004 at 5:51 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fischer played a "rematch" against Spassky in 1992 in Serbia. The very idea that he'd play Karpov in 1996 boggles the mind. Do your homework. Incidentally, his playing in the area at that time was illegal and he's wanted for that and other things by the United States.

 
At July 17, 2004 at 6:01 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At July 17, 2004 at 7:41 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At July 17, 2004 at 8:49 PM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

I will remove inappropriate remarks so please find a way to be civil.

 
At July 17, 2004 at 8:56 PM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

There is nothing to discus it is a fact that Jabotinsky was a right-winged Zionist and the Likud was founded in 1973, you my friend are plain wrong. As for the Chomsky remark, does this one suffice:

Hebrew is a secret language, you only read it if you're inside the tribe. Like most cultures it's a tribal culture. (http://www.variant.ndtilda.co.uk/16texts/Chomsky.html)

 
At July 17, 2004 at 10:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Chomsky is not the only person to point out that Israeli newspapers are edited for English audiences; Yediot Achronoth columnist Ran HaCohn dissected how Ha'aretz is censored in a column entitled "Looking behind Ha'aretz's Liberal Image" (10-2-02), which you can read at www.antiwar.com. But then I wrote all of this at "Diary of an Anti-Chomskyite" [that has to be the most Stalinist-sounding word concoted by bloggers ever] over Ben's "Chomsky and Anti-Semite" comment.

 
At July 18, 2004 at 10:28 AM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

Let’s assume Chomsky is right for the sake of argument about the Hebrew press, why the need to call Hebrew secret? The claim can be made without calling Hebrew a secret language. Do you honestly want to sit there and claim that Hebrew is a secret language while it is taught at every major university in the world, except in Arab countries? Let's say I wanted to make the same point about the Arab press, I would never call Arabic secret, so why does Chomsky call Hebrew secret. Chomsky's hidden agenda is seeping through.

 
At July 18, 2004 at 11:09 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Because most Americans don't read the Israeli press in the orginal, instead relying on translated issues that may have edited articles or articles cut out (when those articles ran in full in the Hebrew version.) This isn't an anti-Semitic plot; the Soviet Union heavily edited the Russian-language versions of American newspapers and magazines. As for Hebrew being a "hidden" language, while it may be true that most major colleges offer Hebrew, I've been hearing for years (via the mainstream press) that the number of students taking foreign languages in US colleges is declining. On top of that, when students are forced to take a language, it is my experiance that they usually take Spanish. So the number of Hebrew-literate Americans must be in the extreme minority. This is what I think Chomsky means, though (as we both know) you can email him and get his answer.

 
At July 18, 2004 at 11:31 AM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

First off you sound like a broken record. I said lets assume, for argument sake, that Chomsky is right about the Hebrew press, there is no need for you to defend the argument anymore because we have moved on. Second, are you trying to say since American's don't take foreign languages than that makes them secret? That is a mind-boggling assertion. A cultural laziness does not produce secret languages. A secret is something hidden from the public, so why would a person write secret code in something that can be translated by any professor at a local university? By your logic all non-English languages are by there very nature secret, and the Zionist conspiracy also lives in the pages of French and German newspapers. Also if that is what Chomsky meant then why did he also say, "you only read [Hebrew] if you're inside the tribe. Like most cultures it's a tribal culture." Chomsky knew full when what he was implying, I don't need to email him for pathetic attempt at a cover up.

 
At July 18, 2004 at 1:33 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you read the whole thing (as I have, three times), he's only implying that Israelis and the small number of Hebrew-literate persons in America and elsewhere read publications like "Ha'aretz" in the orginal. And if you read the whole thing, Dhimmi, then you would know that Chomsky himself has experianced anti-Semitism, both as a child and as a student at Harvard. However, if you conflate anti-Semitism with criticism of Israel (as Abba Eban urges in the piece) than Noam Chomsky is an anti-Semite.

 
At July 19, 2004 at 12:32 AM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

He can imply all that without claiming Jews are a secret tribe that have their own secret language. And you still haven't explained why Chomsky has called Hebrew secret when anyone who really wants to can learn it. And the broken record keeps going and going.

 
At July 19, 2004 at 10:42 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, he said it was a "secret" language of a "tribal" culture. And actually, YOU are the broken record because you think that these two sentences add up to further evidence of Chomsky being an anti-Semite. You have a preconcieved notion that Chomsky is a "self-hating Jew," so everything the man says on the subject of Judaism or Israel must be anti-Semitic. Your situation is similar to that of the "creation scientist" who believes that Earth's earliest history was accurately described in Genesis and has to make the fossil record fit that narrative. Of course it doesn't work as is, so facts that don't fit the picture are avoided.

 
At July 19, 2004 at 4:23 PM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

Ah, what can one say when the debate turns into a free-for-all. It would be nice if you could stop with the name-calling and baseless accusations. Not only do they hurt your position but also very telling as to how you perceive others that you disagree with. Also nice try with the guilty by association tactic, I see why you so admire Chomsky's work. Just for the record, and this will be the FOURTH time that I have said this, the debate we were having was based on the premise that Chomsky was correct about the Israeli press. The only thing that I took issue with was the claim that Hebrew was a secret language; hence the only person who was ignoring the evidence was you, because you kept reiterating the same point over and over again about the press when it wasn't even the issue that I was discussing. Why you can't understand that or debate that point is beyond me. You my friend have never been able to explain how it is that Hebrew is a secret language that has emanated from the tribal culture of the Jewish people. And if we press Chomsky logic further than Arabic must be a secret language too, but I think we both know why Chomsky will never say that.

 
At July 20, 2004 at 8:44 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

With regard to Fischer, I find it hard to believe you would take seriously a man who is mentally ill, much less demonize them.

Furthermore, why do you not let let anyone comment on on most of your anti-Chomsky posts? I think this is extremely dishonest and cowardly.

JC

 
At July 20, 2004 at 11:08 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Alright, then. The explanation for the "secret" and "tribal" remark is that Chomsky thinks that the only people who really read the Israeli press are Israeli Jews and the small number of Hebrew-literate people outside of Israel, that they are the only audience that matters, and that the Hebrew-language press is open about the Palestinian situation and what Israel will do. As I pointed out through the Ran HaCohen acticle, the English-language versions of certain articles in the Israeli press are often whitewashed or censored completely. So that is what I think it means. Any questions?

 
At July 20, 2004 at 11:11 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

JC, I think Dhimmi only got comment capability recently.

-Stelnikov, who also authored the previous comment.

 
At July 20, 2004 at 11:33 AM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

I am ending this conversation because it has gone beyond pointlessness. As you so eloquently demonstrated with your own post Chomsky could have made the point without calling Hebrew a secret language. Why, he does it seems to be obvious to me, if you want deny it then that’s your prerogative.

JC-
As for Fischer being crazy, well to be an anti-Semites one has to be somewhat insane, no? As for the post not being up I have already discussed the topic elsewhere. But I will add that if a person is to be judged as a coward if they don't allow the masses to post on his weblog than Chomsky must be the biggest coward of them all.

 
At July 20, 2004 at 10:49 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

But Chomsky does not run the weblog; he just writes things for it. The "coward" is the Z Net sysop.

-Strelnikov

 
At July 21, 2004 at 1:14 AM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

It does claim to be "The official weblog of Noam Chomsky" and if Chomsky has a problem with censorship he should speak up. I wonder who you ever let people run a blog under your name if you disagreed with the way they ran it?

 
At July 21, 2004 at 3:46 AM, Blogger LukaB said...

"The only thing that I took issue with was the claim that Hebrew was a secret language;"

Hebrew (or unfortunately any other foreign language) is inaccesible to most citizens of the US and can be thus called a secret to them. The fact that most commentators don't report what is quite honestly written in Hebrew makes it a secret to 'ordinary' Americans.

It is not secret in the way that it is impossible to find out what was written in Hebrew but secret in the way that most Americans don't have access to what is written in Hebrew but only the let's say censored English version. The Hebrew [more truthfull] version [which is also the one Palestinians hear] remains a secret to them.

This is such an obvious point I'm surprised you brought it up. (again)

 
At July 21, 2004 at 11:41 AM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

'Hebrew (or unfortunately any other foreign language) is inaccesible to most citizens of the US and can be thus called a secret to them.'

No it can't. A language can not be called secret just because a certain group of people can't understand it. Everyone has the ability to learn any language they choose hence the assertion that different languages are secret codes is false. There is no one that is stopping people who don't know how to speak Hebrew from learning it either. I will say this one last time: Chomsky did not need to use the word secret, no one has been able to prove otherwise; he did it because he harbors anti-Semitic feelings about Jews. He thinks Jews are an exclusive group of people who control the world’s wealth and speak in secret tongue that no one can decipher. He knew what he was doing when he claimed Jews are the most privileged people and Hebrew is a secret language, the guy is a linguist and knows certain words phrases put together have a certain connotation. That is all I am going to say on this topic.

 
At July 22, 2004 at 7:36 AM, Blogger LukaB said...

LukaB:
'Hebrew (or unfortunately any other foreign language) is inaccesible to most citizens of the US and can be thus called a secret to them.'

Dhimmy:
"No it can't. A language can not be called secret just because a certain group of people can't understand it."

OK. When in doubt, check the dictionary.
From Merriam-Webster online dictionary:
[deleted meanings that do not apply to the above example]

: kept from knowledge or view
: marked by the habit of discretion
: remote from human frequentation or notice
: revealed only to the initiated

[contrast this with Dhimmy's 'No it can't. A language can not be called secret just because a certain group of people can't understand it.']

I'll let everybody decide for themselves whether Hebrew (or for that matter French, Slovenian or any other foreign language) can be called a secret to _most_ Americans.


"Everyone has the ability to learn any language they choose hence the assertion that different languages are secret codes is false."

Just because everybody has the _ability_ to learn any language, doesn't mean that they do. To those that don't learn them, they _can_ be called a secret.

"There is no one that is stopping people who don't know how to speak Hebrew from learning it either."

How about time? Or the lack of it?

"I will say this one last time: Chomsky did not need to use the word secret, no one has been able to prove otherwise;"

Why would anybody prove otherwise? He did not _need_ to use it but it is perfectly legitimate to use it and it does not imply that one is an anti-Semite (or anti-French or anti-Slovenian etc.)

"he did it because he harbors anti-Semitic feelings about Jews."

:)
He is an anti-Semite because he calles Hebrew a secret language and he calles Hebrew a secret language because he is an anti-Semite.

Excellent reasoning.

"He thinks Jews are an exclusive group of people who control the world’s wealth and speak in secret tongue that no one can decipher."

He didn't say that "[Hebrew] is a secret tongue that no one can dechiper."

He's saying most to most Americans (the ones that don't speek Hebrew) it is a secret tongue.

"That is all I am going to say on this topic."

You've said this a couple of times already :)

 
At July 22, 2004 at 8:36 AM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

Sometimes people say things that just push you do things you thought you would not have to do, in that vein I am going to comment on what I said I wouldn't. Sorry for the fib.

Luka,

Your bizarre attempts at softening the Chomsky blow will never work. You said:

He didn't say that "[Hebrew] is a secret tongue that no one can decipher." He's saying most to most Americans (the ones that don't speak Hebrew) it is a secret tongue.

Chomsky actually said:

"Hebrew is a secret language, you only read it if you're inside the tribe. Like most cultures it's a tribal culture."

Make sure you read that four or five times and let it really sink in,"you only read it if you're inside the tribe." Where does Chomsky complain that time is a restriction on people learning Hebrew? He says you have to be inside the tribe to learn it, and I think it is a fair interpretation to believe that Chomsky think only Jews can interpret Hebrew, if you don't then the meaning of the words "you only read" have taken a new meaning. Which if it were not so sick would be laughable. As for the time issue itself the weekends would be nice, or night classes. There is always time to do anything. By the way tell me when Chomsky begins to think French people live in a tribal culture.

 
At July 22, 2004 at 12:26 PM, Blogger LukaB said...

Chomsky actually said:

"Hebrew is a secret language, you only read it if you're inside the tribe. Like most cultures it's a tribal culture."


"He says you have to be inside the tribe to learn it,"

Call me crazy or bizare but I don't see Chomsky saying this. Where does he say 'you have to be inside the tribe to learn it'?

He is saying 'you only read it if you're inside the tribe'.

Which is perfectly consistent with what I wrote before - most Americans are not inside the tribe (of Hebrew speakers - some Jews and some not) and do not read it so it is a secret to them.

"and I think it is a fair interpretation to believe that Chomsky think only Jews can interpret Hebrew,"

Now this is bizzare. Are you serious?
That Chomsky would think 'only Jews can interpret Hebrew' when, as you say, '[Hebrew]is taught at every major university in the world, except in Arab countries', is not a fair interpretation.

The guy is a pioneer linguist from what I read, speaks who knows how many lanugages, his father was an important Hebrew scholar, he and his siblings spent their youth teaching Hebrew and you think he believes 'only Jews can interpert Hebrew'?

Wow. I will refrain from comment so my post doesn't get deleted for ad hominem attacks.


"if you don't then the meaning of the words "you only read" have taken a new meaning. Which if it were not so sick would be laughable."

Could you elaborate on this? I don't understand what you are trying to say.


"As for the time issue itself the weekends would be nice, or night classes. There is always time to do anything."

My point was that most Americans or most people for that matter will not go to night classes and learn Hebrew so that they could read the Israeli press and get the more truthful version of what Israeli politicians say. Either for lack of time or various other reasons.

They instead realy on English [censored] translations of those articles (if they read Israeli press at all) and the Hebrew versions will thus be a secret to them.
Not in the sence that they in no way couldn't find out. But in the sence that they do not find out.

"By the way tell me when Chomsky begins to think French people live in a tribal culture."

Judging from the fact that he said 'Like most cultures it's a tribal culture.' he might think so already. If you're that interested you can write him and find out.

[by the way, how do you enable bold, italics, indentation etc.? thanks]

 
At July 22, 2004 at 9:36 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>At 1:14 AM, Dhimmi said...
>It does claim to be "The official weblog of Noam
>Chomsky" and if Chomsky has a problem with censorship
>he should speak up. I wonder who you ever let people
>run a blog under your name if you disagreed with the
>way they ran it?

I don't think he has ever seen it, nor does he know anything about web logs or how they are run. Considering when he was born I doubt he is a computer geek.

JC

 
At July 22, 2004 at 10:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>At 8:36 AM, Dhimmi said...
>you only read it if you're inside the tribe

I think this is a generalization. Hebrew is spoken by very few people outside of Israel and by much fewer who are not Jewish. So in that sense one could call it a tribal language. According to ethnologue.com 5,150,000 speak Hebrew worldwide with 4,847,000 (94%) living within the borders of Israel. I am sure the number of non-Jews who can read Hebrew is very small. I wouldn't exactly call it a world language. Even Danish has more speakers. Compare this to 128,000,000 speakers of French or 417,000,000 speakers of Spanish. Those numbers are much higher than those who live in either France or Spain. French and Spanish are world languages - not only because of the number of speakers - but because a huge proportion of speakers are not ethnically French or Spanish. Almost all speakers of Hebrew are somehow connected with the tribe.

JC

 
At July 22, 2004 at 10:29 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

> At 11:33 AM, Dhimmi said...
>As for Fischer being crazy, well to be an anti-Semites one has to
>be somewhat insane, no?

Not necessarily. There was a time when mainstream Europe/America was quite racist, yet I wouldn't call them mentally ill. I would call them bigots. Fischer appears to be a schizophrenic and his bizarre behavior transcends his anti-Semitic statements.

 
At July 24, 2004 at 7:35 PM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

JC,

Just because the majority of Hebrew speakers are Jewish that does not make it correct to say "you only read [Hebrew] if you're inside the tribe." There certainly are non-Jewish Hebrew speakers. I recall that a Christian Priest wrote the Hebrew textbox that I learned off of in school. To say that there are none is just absurd. Again as I stated above Chomsky is a linguist he knows certain words and phrases put together have a certain connotation. He knew what he was doing when he made the claim Jews rich and power and have a secret tongue, as Chomsky likes to say it reeks of Nazi and Stalinist language. Numbers don’t mean anything.

Yes I do think that, "when mainstream Europe/America was quite racist" that to some extent they were mentally ill. I don’t know how much of Fischer’s hatred for Jews comes from his psychological problems but seeing the fact that he was an admirer of Hitler for a long time I doubt whether one plays of the other.

For Chomsky not to have seen his blog but for it to say the Official weblog of Noam Chomsky is a mind-boggling assertion, where’s your evidence. The man maybe old but that doesn’t mean that he doesn’t know how to use a computer. By the way the next time you authorize someone to your name tell if you will feel comfortable not checking up on how they use it. If Chomsky hasn't seen it then that adds more to certian beliefs I have about him already.

 
At July 25, 2004 at 4:57 AM, Blogger LukaB said...

Guess we'll have to go to the dictionary again.
From Merriam-Webster, a tribe is:

1 a : a social group comprising numerous families, clans, or generations together with slaves, dependents, or adopted strangers ...
2 : a group of persons having a common character, occupation, or interest

Dhimmy said:
"To say that there are none [Hebrew speakers that are not Jews] is just absurd."

Nobody is saying this (apart from you). Both JC and I stated Hebrew speakers are not only Jews (read above). You're making a straw man.

A tribe, as you can see above, can under definition a) include 'adopted strangers' -- Hebrew speakers who are not Jewish -- or under b) 'group of persons with a common interest' -- Hebrew.

And to say that the statement you qouted shows Chomsky is an anti-Semite is just wrong. It would be if he singled out Jews. But in the quote you gave us we find 'like most cultures' -- which means the Jewish culture is nothing special either way. Which is the exact opposite of what you're acusing him of.

One has to want to believe Chomsky is an anti-Semite (or self-hating Jew) to come up with conclusions like these from the facts presented.

And to make the claim that Jews are rich and powerfull is not anti-Semitic either. It's a statement of fact. Like saying the Duch are on average 4" taller than the English.

The only statement from that text that _could_ be understood as anti-Semitic would be that "Jews in the US are the most privileged and influential part of the population."

One could claim they are the most privileged (based on median income etc.) but _not_ that they are the most influential.

I've already covered this over at Benjmains:

---
He does state the opposite in the article above.

Now let's go to why. We have two options:

1. He's an anti-Semite

If one chooses this option, this is surely not the only time Chomsky says this and it will not be a problem showing other articles, books etc. where Chomsky is showing the same kind of anti-Semitism.

If you base it on one qoute alone, it can be explained away as error, a gaffe, anomaly, abberation or something similar.

I have to wonder why neither Benjamin nor you have provided these articles or books or quotes from them.

2. Chomsky is not an anti-Semite (but why the contradiction then?)

One does not get this from the article but from reading Chomsky's other work I would say he meant Jews were the richest and most influential among the minorities or ethnic groups which are discriminated against. Mere speculation, of course, but given the topic [discrimintaion] and the context [talked about other minorities], a far better one than saying he's an anti-Semite.
And I would read his other writings on the subject, if not elswhere in the above qouted article, to see what he has to say on the matter. And you will find out he's consistent in claiming otherwise - that even the Israeli lobby, which includes not only the more influential part of American Jews but also other (powerfull) groups, is only infuential in areas that serve the interests of the US elite.
---

I would especially emphasize that last part as any person reading the whole article would know that Chomsky does not believe that "Jews are the most influential part of the population" and says so in the article itself and in numerous other books also.

You may have proven that he's not perfect (thanks for pointing out the obvious). But not that he's an anti-Semite.



"Numbers don’t mean anything."

This got me thinking. As I've said before, Chomsky has written over 90 books, over a 1000 articles, has had who knows how many speeches, lectures, etc.

You claim he's an anti-Semite.

I suggest you make a seperate post where you bring _all_ the accusations you can find of Chomsky being an anti-Semite, number them and we can discuss them.

I'll help.

What you have brought to the table so far is:

1. Chomsky is an anti-Semite because he says that "Hebrew is a secret language, you only read it if you’re inside the tribe."

2. Chomsky is an anti-Semite because he said:
"By now Jews in the US are the most privileged and influential part of the population. You find occasional instances of anti-Semitism but they are marginal."

3. Chomsky is an anti-Semite because he said "I see no anti-Semitic implications in denial of the existence of gas chambers, or even denial of the holocaust. "

I'll leave out other Cohn related stuff till we resolve the timing issue at
http://chomskywatch.blogspot.com/2004/07/meet-chomskys-foil-another-chomsky.html

Points 1. - 3. have all been refuted either here or over at Benjamin's.
But it would be better if we could have the whole lot in one post so we can finally come to a conclusion.

Agree?

 
At July 25, 2004 at 8:53 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

> At 7:35 PM, Dhimmi said...
>Just because the majority of Hebrew speakers are Jewish that does not
>make it correct to say "you only read [Hebrew] if you're inside the tribe."
>There certainly are non-Jewish Hebrew speakers. I recall that a Christian
>Priest wrote the Hebrew textbox that I learned off of in school. To say
>that there are none is just absurd. Again as I stated above Chomsky is a
>linguist he knows certain words and phrases put together have a certain
>connotation. He knew what he was doing when he made the claim Jews
>rich and power and have a secret tongue, as Chomsky likes to say it
>reeks of Nazi and Stalinist language. Numbers don’t mean anything.

I have spoken to him enough times to know he doesn't always speak in precise terms, whether he is talking about Jews or not. I personally don't read anything sinister into his statements about Hebrew being spoken within the tribe. It suffices to say that very few non-Jews speak who Hebrew well enough to read a newspaper and those who do are mostly linguists or those who are religious scholars. I am sure there are others but the number is small enough that I don't consider Chomsky's remarks to be a reflection of anti-Semitism. If you really want to know what he meant by that perhaps you should ask him yourself. I give him the benefit of the doubt, though I can see how someone who despises him might read something else into it.

>I don’t know how much of Fischer’s hatred for Jews comes from his
>psychological problems but seeing the fact that he was an admirer of
>Hitler for a long time I doubt whether one plays of the other.

If you have been around mentally ill people as much as I have you will know they are given to bizarre statements and beliefs that are rooted only in their own twisted minds. Put them on medication and that often disappears.

>For Chomsky not to have seen his blog but for it to say the Official
>weblog of Noam Chomsky is a mind-boggling assertion, where’s your
>evidence. The man maybe old but that doesn’t mean that he doesn’t
>know how to use a computer. By the way the next time you authorize
>someone to your name tell if you will feel comfortable not checking up
>on how they use it. If Chomsky hasn't seen it then that adds more to
>certian beliefs I have about him already.

My evidence is that I asked that question shortly after I tried to reply there and found I had to be a paying member. I was told (I would rather not say by whom) that Chomsky didn't know anything about the weblog, that he had no interest in them and was too busy to get involved in them. The posts were his and were reposted by the person who runs the site. The weblog aside, I have found Chomsky to be very accessible and quite a nice fellow. Perhaps you should drop him an e-mail and ask these questions yourself.

 
At July 25, 2004 at 8:54 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Above post by JC.

JC

 
At July 26, 2004 at 12:05 AM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

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At July 26, 2004 at 12:08 AM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At July 26, 2004 at 12:10 AM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

Luka: "Nobody is saying [Hebrew speakers are not Jews] (apart from [Dhimmi])."

Chomsky: "you only read [Hebrew] if you're inside the tribe [i.e. the Jewish Tribe]."

I think the above is self explanatory, except for the bizarre claim that I believe Hebrew speakers are only Jewish maybe Luka can explain that one himself since I have repeatedly stated the opposite. BTW bold font and underlines are just HTML tags.

 
At July 26, 2004 at 12:11 AM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

JC,

Thanks for the heads up that Chomsky doesn't care about how his name is used. Very interesting. Did you tell him about the totalitarian administrators there?

 
At July 26, 2004 at 5:17 AM, Blogger LukaB said...

Hate to repeat myself but OK.

The tribe Chomsky was referring to was not Jews only but Jewish speakers. Because you chose to understand the 'tribe' as Jews only, I provided two dictionary references to show this need not be so.

I'll repeat them:

From Merriam-Webster, a tribe is:
1 a : a social group comprising numerous families, clans, or generations together with slaves, dependents, or adopted strangers ...
2 : a group of persons having a common character, occupation, or interest
A tribe, as you can see above, can under definition a) include 'adopted strangers' -- Hebrew speakers who are not Jewish -- or under b) be a 'group of persons with a common interest' -- Hebrew.



"...bizarre claim that I believe Hebrew speakers are only Jewish ..."

I meant that it was you that brought this claim up (not that you believed it).

I did not read Chomsky's remark to include Jews only because even if he were an anti-Semite he's not going to claim that only Jews can speak Hebrew, that would be stupid.
(especially since Chomsky himself taught Hebrew in his younger days, his father was a prominent Hebrew scholar etc., I'm repeating myself again)

What I think we all agree on is that he's not stupid.

 
At July 27, 2004 at 12:07 AM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

I am guessing by the phrase Jewish speakers you actually mean Hebrew speakers ... right? Otherwise you are going to have to elaborate on what a Jewish Speaker is because being a Jew myself I really don't know.

Anyway assuming you meant Hebrew speaker lets see if it flies:

"Hebrew is a secret language, you only read it if you're inside the tribe [of Hebrew Speakers]."

So Hebrew is a secret language because only Hebrew speakers can understand it? Wow that's some deep stuff there. I never knew that. All joking aside, that is certainly not what Chomsky meant and if he did then the man is by all accounts brain dead because it is a pointless argument make: a language is secretive only because people who speak the language can understand it. Clearly Chomsky was talking about Jews. The whole article was about rich and powerful Jews who have most influence in America and manipulate the press because 99 percent control is not enough for them they need all of it. So I see no reason why Chomsky would for one line switch topics and talk about Hebrew speakers and not the tribe that he lauds: the Jews. I guess your right Chomsky is stupid for claiming that only Jews speak Hebrew, and an anti-Semite to boot.

 
At July 27, 2004 at 6:42 AM, Blogger LukaB said...

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At July 27, 2004 at 1:08 PM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

Hey Luka I get all posts sent to my mailbox, even ones you delete. I don't know why you deleted yours but I will say that you misconstrued what I wrote. Let me make sure that I am clear so when you respond again you won't make the same mistake.

A) You claimed when Chomsky says the word tribe he is talking about a group of people who have a common interest - they all speak Hebrew - and not necessarily Jews. So lets see here if you are 'inside the tribe' then that means you are 'a Hebrew speaker'.

B) Lets take the words 'a Hebrew speaker' and put it into the sentence where Chomsky refers it and see if it goes:

"Hebrew is a secret language, you only read it if you're [a Hebrew speaker]."

I think it's pretty clear what Chomsky meant and did not mean.

BTW Saying Israel controls the US is not the same as saying Jews control the US.

 
At July 27, 2004 at 2:18 PM, Blogger LukaB said...

"I am guessing by the phrase Jewish speakers you actually mean Hebrew speakers ... right?"

:)
Sorry. Slip of tongue (or fingers as I'm typing).

"Anyway assuming you meant Hebrew speaker lets see if it flies:

"Hebrew is a secret language, you only read it if you're inside the tribe [of Hebrew Speakers]."

So Hebrew is a secret language because only Hebrew speakers can understand it?"

No. I've already explained this above so I have to assume you are deliberately ignoring what I said.

But I'll repeat (again).
Hebrew is a secret language because most americans or most people in general don't speak it and is thus a secret to them. What you and I both know he was reffering to is that what is said in the Hebrew version of the Israeli press is then censored in the English version. The Hebrew version is a secret to non-Hebrew speakers, a secret to most americans.


"The whole article was about rich and powerful Jews who have most influence in America and manipulate the press because 99 percent control is not enough for them they need all of it."

Compare this statement of yours with an excerpt from the article (emphasis mine):
Influence of Israel over the US elite? In my opinion essentially nothing. ... [T]here’s a lot of interaction but Israel can have no influence on the US. If the US doesn’t want them to do something it tells them and they follow orders. We saw that with the pullout from Ramallah a couple of days ago. That same point extends to the power of the Jewish lobby and its backers—technically it’s not a Jewish lobby, it’s a pro-Israel lobby. ... So there is an Israel lobby and it has influence insofar as it is allied to actual US power. Where it runs into any conflict with US power it dissolves. (Another factor is they have enormous influence over the media because they happen to be strong within the intellectual community.)[Luka: this is a statement of fact, not some general accusation without evidence which could be branded anti-Semitic] So yes, they’re powerful, but I wouldn’t exaggerate their power.

Reads a bit differently than your summation of it, doesn't it?

As I've stated above, there is one contradiction to the passage I qouted but that is only one example in over 90 books, thausands of articles, speeches, interviews which are all consistent with the passage I qouted. Yet you deliberately omit all of that material and pick on one part of a sentence to prove your point.

You are deliberatly misrepresenting or lying about what Chomsky said with the aim of branding him an anti-Semite.

I was hoping for a more open and fair discussion, I have to say I'm very dissapointed.

Whenever we come near a conclusion, you either stop responding (not all holocaust deniers are anti-semites) leaving me with the assumption that you agree (but suspicion you don't), or distort what I and others have said. Why?

 
At July 27, 2004 at 2:32 PM, Blogger LukaB said...

"Hey Luka I get all posts sent to my mailbox, even ones you delete."

Didn't delete it on purpose. Blogger has been acting weird lately. Rewrote it, see if I made any substantial differences and post them (don't think I did).

"I think it's pretty clear what Chomsky meant and did not mean."

When you qoute somebody, it is only fair to look at the context of that qoute.

Here's the whole qoute:
The Hebrew press is much more open than the English language press, and there’s a very obvious reason: Hebrew is a secret language, you only read it if you’re inside the tribe. Like most cultures it’s a tribal culture. I don’t want to exaggerate, but the English translations on the internet are very revealing and very interesting.It's obvious he's talking about Hebrew as a language in reference to what comes out in the Hebrew version of Haaretz and what comes out in the English version. You only read the Hebrew version if you're inside the tribe of Hebrew speakers (obviousely). You read the English version if you're not. So the Hebrew version is a secret to you.

I can speculate on why you chose to qoute only part of what he said. But I will not, every reader can decide for themselves.

But I will say you are dishonest. And that is not an ad hominem attack, but a statement of fact.

"BTW Saying Israel controls the US is not the same as saying Jews control the US."

That is why I put 'That same point extends to the power of the Jewish lobby' in bold. In both my original post and my second post.

 
At July 27, 2004 at 4:12 PM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

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At July 27, 2004 at 4:13 PM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

Chomsky said:

"By now Jews in the US are the most privileged and influential part of the population ... Anti-Semitism is no longer a problem, fortunately. It’s raised, but it’s raised because privileged people [Dhimmi: that would be Jews] want to make sure they have total control, not just 98% control. That’s why anti-Semitism is becoming an issue. Not because of the threat of anti-Semitism; they want to make sure there’s no critical look at the policies the US (and they themselves) support in the Middle East."

I don't think I misspoke (except for saying 99 percent he actually said 98 - my bad) on what Chomsky had to say given the above.

 
At July 27, 2004 at 4:15 PM, Blogger Dhimmi said...

Oh one more thing just in case you did not know the Jewish Lobby and Jews are not the same thing either.

 
At July 28, 2004 at 3:33 AM, Blogger LukaB said...

"By now Jews in the US are the most privileged and influential part of the population ... Anti-Semitism is no longer a problem, fortunately. It’s raised, but it’s raised because privileged people [Dhimmi: that would be Jews] ..."

No, this is not the Jews. You are misreading what he said. He's talking about _all_ priviledged people. Otherwise he would say Jews.
He's talking about the US elite, which is confirmed in the passage I qouted.

Just because he once calls Jews priviledged (or most priviledged) does not mean that any time he talks about priviledged people after that he means Jews.

"I don't think I misspoke ... on what Chomsky had to say given the above."

You really have to have a sinister view of Chomsky to come up with conclusions like these.

How do you explain the difference from your understanding of what Chomsky said in the passage you qouted and what he said in the passage I qouted?

"Oh one more thing just in case you did not know the Jewish Lobby and Jews are not the same thing either."

Agree. But if one believed that Jews rule over America, how would they exert this influence? I would say through the Jewish lobby. Chomsky say the Jewish lobby exerts "essentially no influence" on the US elite.

I think it is a fair conclusion to think that Chomsky believes the Jews exert "essentially no influence" over the US elite except "it has influence insofar as it is allied to actual US power. Where it runs into any conflict with US power it dissolves."And since you didn't comment on the my last explanation (I hope) of 'secret language', I'm assuming you agree?

 
At July 31, 2004 at 8:40 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Back to Bobby Fischer,

I found a story that claims his biological father was a Hungarian Jew so he might be Jewish on both sides,

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/front/4535883.htm?1c

Also, he has a website now where he, among other things, pleads for bin Laden to hit Bekins Storage. He claims they conspired with Jews to rob him in what he terms as "the greatest heist in American history" all his personal belongings that were being held in storage. In almost every one of his radio interviews he rambles on and on about the Bekins heist and how it part of a CIA plot instigated by a world Jewish conspiracy.


http://home.att.ne.jp/moon/fischer/

JC

 
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At January 18, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bobby Fischer was right in many ways. But he was not as smart as i am.

The plan the USA has with the Jews is to destroy them. That is why they have round them up in Israel. A 150 years old plan by Southern State leaders as revenge for crimes commited against Southern State people during the American civil war.

To destroy the Jews they first inspired Hitler and the NAZI party and financed them (Prescott Bush) and at the same time supported the Zionist movement to round up any Jew that would be left over after WW2. Now they are actively seeking a partner to destroy the Jews in Israel. That is why they deliver nuclear technology to Iran and Libya.

At the same time they support any warmongering Jewish leader so hatred between Jews and Muslims is at an all time high. The USA will always sabotage any Jewish politician that wants peace with the Arabs. Because then their plan will fail.

The Zionuts in Israel do not see this American Southern States plan which is 150 years old. Israel is the same as a "shower" during the holocaust in NAZI deathcamps.

Who financed Hitler ?

The USA.

Who inspired Hitler ?

The USA.

Who supported the ZIONISTS to bring Jews to a hatred filled part of the world ?

The USA.

The USA is NOT the friends of the Jews. They actively seek their destruction.

 
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